Indeed, but most of the time, those best interests are at least tangibly arguable. ie: You should stop smoking so much, it is really affecting your health! etc. These sorts of badgerings are defencible on the nature of their subject.

Religious badgering on the other hand, has no such tangible gain or reason.


I am not denying that people can be biggotted. The difference is that Christians tend to justify their bigottry with the Bible - they assume that their Bigotry is condoned by God, the creator of everything, and thus *absolutely* true.

People may dislike homosexuals, but it really takes a religious conviction to have parents disown their homosexual child...

So believers have "The word of God" telling them what to beleive, and so there is no room in their world to change their opinions. Herein lies the problem - it is possible to educate ignorant people - it is much harder to educate people who are already in possesion of "THE truth". So the first step, is to help those who think they have special access to 'THE truth' more aware of their ignorance.


There is no inherent need to argue against it, obviously. A desire to argue against it can however be easily created when people continually use the claim of its existence as a reason to do a thing. To put it another way, just so we don't have any confusions, there is no a priori *need* to argue against it, but if people want to claim it exists, and they do so in a way which requires a reaction on your behalf, than obviously arguing against said claim is not unreasonable.

So, when I come and knock on your door and tell you that you need hand me $50 because the Unicorn behind me demands it, then yes, making the obvious statement "There is no unicorn behind you" seems like a valid tactic. It is not that you 'need' to argue against the existance of the unicorn, but since the demand for $50 seems to be causally linked to the unicorns claimed existance, pointing out that it does not exist may resolve the $50 demand problem.

The reply that you do not expect to that though, is the person demanding the $50 to say "Why do you feel the need to deny the existence of my unicorn? Are you scared of it?"


No, that is what will happen if my current beliefs are correct. If you are wrong, a whole universe of possibility could happen. You could end up in Hades, or in Valhalla... you could be reincarnated. You may just be logged out of the game, and find that this entire existance was a role playing game. etc.


That is true for both of us though.

What if our creator does indeed watch our existence as you beleive, and it does then 'Judge' us at the end of it. What if that creator rewards true, honest, sincere people who did their best and tried to make the most of their lives?

What if that creator despised individuals whose actions were only determined by fear of punishment and desire of reward. People who live their life in constant anticipation of the end of it, where they can finally actually be happy - like seriously, why waste your time in this stupid life now if "Heaven" is coming when we die? What if that creator judges harshly the people who think that CHOOSING to believe something because of the consequences of that belief, rather than the reasons for believing?

What if the Jews are right, and Jesus isn't the messiah? Will God punish you most severely for worshipping the false idol that is "Jesus on a cross"?

You don't know. I don't know. But at least I am not shallow enough to change my belief out of fear of punishment.


A few times. Made me laugh and cry at the same time, everytime.

A bit. Makes me wonder whether the believers have ever read it. In fact, I do believe that is the best way to convert a believer into a non-believer. Getting them to actually read the bible.


Interesting comparison there. Molecualr Biology, and the Christian Faith. One is a study of reality. The other is faith derived from a book. I wouldn't bother with the minister - I would go straight to the book. And yeah sure, thats where you tell me that I don't have the skills to understand the book properly, or the context, and what was really meant etc. But what makes you think anyone else does either? Just because they 'studied' it (ie: had another person who supposedly knew about the book) tell them what it means, doesn't make them any more likely to actually know what it means.

No, the study of nature is something which the educated people know of their ignorance. I know how little i know of molecular biology. You don't even know the extent of your ignorance on the subject.

But when it comes to a faith, which is based on a book - a book written by men, and then edited by men, and then stuck together based on a group of men deciding which bits they wanted to have in it, and which bits they didn't - then all you need to study is history and the book itself. Oh, and a bit of anthropology and sociology thrown in will really help you to put the entire thing in context.

FOr example, you spoke as if you know who John Frum was, but I am not convinced you really know anything about him - if you watch these two videos, then I think you will actually have the opportunity to see how the cult of "Jesus Christ" started:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1skNgYdJXK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jel5by93 ... re=related


Spoken to several ministers in my years. Spoken to firm believers of just about every extremity. I am a philosopher and a thinker, and religion has always intrigued me. Oh, and my mind isn't made up already - which is a problem i see most believers can't get past, which is why they project, and assume that everyone else has sat comfortably in their little box, fearful of talking to people of other beliefs.

So I guess you are not a literal genesis person? It is impossible to know exactly what beliefs each christian has in advance - you know you all pretty much believe different things. Try talking to other Christians some time (I guess ones that go to a different church to you, or maybe a different denomination)


I am strong and doesn't afraid of anything.

it was a joke.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 343AAtuNxW


Huh? It was my reply to your points. That is how a discussion works. You say things, I reply to them, you reply to those points. Don't worry, having a well structured, well thought out discussion is something I would never dare accuse most christians of doing....


You think other people are reading this? Either on facebook or here? You over estimate the willingness of the average person to put themselves through pain. No one is watching on and cheering for you or me. This is between the two of us, and any incidental readers will probably skip most of the text here and get on with their lives.

When I said we should move the discussion off from trents wall on facebook, I did it for his sake and for the sake of the discussion itself. I take this topic seriously (and pay attention to the facts involved, not the typos and grammer) and would like to have the SPACE to respond properly to the points and questions you raise, and I would like to be able to work through it all THOROUGHLY by addressing each point DIRECTLY. Hence the "Quotes" and the responses. This is not taking you out of context, it is directly replying to your points. If you don't like me responding directly to your points, then maybe you should just walk away.

As for this forum not being neutral - this forum is just a forum. I also offered my own forum at TDMSKP.com.au. Or if you prefer, ImmInst.org is another forum I use. Or look if you want, lets use christianforums.com - I don't care. I am discussing the points of the argument, not the environment in which it is conducted.
ps: I chose this forum in the end because a friend made it and it is still new, and one of the hardest things to do is get enough people to use a forum to give it content to then have it grow under its own steam. I was doing this in part as a favour to help a friend out. And you laugh at that. nice.


Oh I get that, but so far most of your replies have been 'talking points' style, which clearly are said to score points, and sound convincing, yet lack any real substance. As it is my job to explain why and how they lack substance, I need to deconstruct what you have said and explain it to you. To do this, I need more space, and the ability to quote you directly. Otherwise you get confused. This has already happened a few times.


Please direct me to where in my profile i 'state' that I am clever.

More importantly though, is there any chance we can keep the ad hominem out of it? Can we keep the discussion about the topic, and not about me?


This is how a discussion works. You make a claim, and then i counter it with my perspective. You then counter that, etc. If you can say something that convinces me that my point of view was wrong, then my mind changes. I hope the reverse is true, and that there is a chance that my words and arguments may be able to change your mind.

I was wrong to generalise. I am sorry.

Please, for the love of god, can we get back to the topic now?


That is correct. I was not trying to be funny when I was using the analogy of the demand for $50 as being the same sort of reasoning as that of a follower of Jesus. Would you care to address its point for me?

I reposted this thread over at Christian Forums: http://www.christianforums.com/t7455219/#post54428266

Now you can choose whether you want to reply in a small, quiet you and me environment, or in 'likely to be interupted' but very in your favour christian forums. I really don't care, I just want to hear your side of the discussion.